Good People Are Quietly Quitting: Ethical Leadership, AI Strategy & Why Culture Determines AI Success

Carly Caminiti: If you have high performing staff that are deciding to leave the company or they're being forced out of the company because of them just feeling like they just can't anymore, then that's when the company ends up losing a ton of money when they could have just invested it properly in their team in the first place. And that will again keep happening over and over until the leaders at the top start making more financial decisions and how to support the team.

Chris Hutchins: It seems and feels like a responsible financial decision, but in actuality, they're not actually looking at the entire cost. I've seen that sadly too many times as well. Carly, welcome to the Signal Room.

Carly Caminiti: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Chris Hutchins: I'm so excited to talk to you today. We've had a couple conversations and it's remarkable. If it turns out we've known some people in common, and actually one of them was on the on the show a while ago. And uh as we spoke the other day, I was like fascinated hearing about what you're doing. It's very timely and very relevant. Uh, as we kind of talked about the fact that we are in a really interesting transition or transformational period with all the stuff going on with AI. And I think we're probably getting because it's moving so quickly, we're we're losing track of some things that are kind of important and it really starts with people and relationships, which uh obviously is your area of expertise. So I'd love for you to just just talk a little bit about what you're what you're doing. I mean, I know you're you're doing a lot of great coaching and yeah, you're you're supporting executive teams, but there's a lot more to it. And I I just love to have you talk about that a little bit. Then we'll dig into some of the things that that you're seeing that are concerning and what can we do about it. Sure.

Carly Caminiti: Well, you know, it it kind of reminds me because I was just talking to a friend of mine who is an AI expert, and she is also a previous client of mine. And she said, you know, Carly, I think your job is actually AI proof. And I said to her, What makes you say that? And she said, Well, thinking about AI, there's nothing can that can replace a real coach. And I've thought about this a lot. You know, there's a lot of people who try to use AI for coaching, for counseling, for any sort of advice giving, and it's just not the same. So I thought what she said was brilliant. And it makes me think about kind of your question of what I do. What I do is is partially what AI can't. I look at people for who they are and can listen to their emotions and empathize with them. And that is something that is being taken away by AI.

Chris Hutchins: That's a huge, huge point there. Uh I mean, it doesn't really even listen to you. I mean, we talk about, you know, things like ambient listening, but it's it there's it doesn't interpret things the way that uh her human beings want to interpret it. Um it's not gonna pick up body language, it's not gonna feel anything. I mean, that's a really significant thing. I mean, I I think we need we probably need what you do a lot more than we have ever needed it, to be honest.

Carly Caminiti: Well, I mean, I think if you look at it, people are constantly wanting to feel seen and heard. That's just a normal part of being human. And so while we can look to technology to help us in certain times where we don't have another human next to us, there's also just so much benefit to having that other person there. So what I'm trying to do is be there for leaders. And it doesn't matter what organization or what kind of field we're talking about, no matter what kind of leader they are, that implies that they're having a ripple effect on their entire team. And if their team doesn't know how to regulate their own nervous system and they're just being run ragged by whatever system they're working in, then that's exactly where coaching can fit in. And so I think when we think about people's sustainability of working in a job and why a lot of people are unhappy, a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're not even given the tools to be able to regulate their own stress. And there's not enough importance being put on that now because it's just kind of the norm that you're just given one more thing to do and expected to do it because you're a high performer.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah. And I think we've not done ourselves a lot of favors in the last several years, and we've gotten even more dependent on technology. And unfortunately, there's just this layer with social media between people, and you know, some of these basic concepts are just they're being largely ignored, and people don't even realize the kind of deficits they actually have. It's really important for someone to be able to talk about this and make sure that the leadership teams are understanding what people are really going for. Um I think there's probably a a disconnect, and it's one of the things I was wanting to hear you talk about today, is the workforce reality gap. There's this disconnect between how leadership defines workforce stability and how the frontline actually experiences it. Um I think there's so many layers in between. I don't know where it all gets lost, but I I think there's an there's definitely an issue that that we need to talk about there. It needs to be brought to the forefront, I think, sooner than later.

Carly Caminiti: I think what's missing is a conversation because you can do all the surveys you want, all the staff satisfaction metrics, you can look at those and they can look good on the surface. But then you actually talk to a frontline worker, you talk to somebody who's working in a hospital, and they might have a completely different take on what it means to be fully staffed. So leadership from a from their perspective, they might think, okay, we're in a good place, we're fully staffed. And then you talk to somebody on the front line and they're gonna say, Are you kidding me? This is this is what fully staffed is. And I've talked to people too who work in healthcare who say that they've never even heard anybody say we're fully staffed in the nursing field specifically, because they're constantly being bombarded with new things to do, new layers. You add in AI and the technology that they need to use in everyday interactions with their patients that they didn't have to use before. And while some of that is good because it can create more time, in other cases, and depending on the person, if they're just one step away from feeling so burnt out that they're leaving, adding in more technology might actually do more harm than good.

Chris Hutchins: Right. No, you know, bur burning out of some one of those words we're hearing a lot more, particularly in the healthcare space with nursing and and physicians, to your your point. You touched on something that you know just reminds me of how how you what you do is actually so unique and in how you actually work with executives because you you talk about interacting with with some of the staff. Aaron Powell We talk a little bit about that if you would. I mean, I think that that's an interesting thing. And I and I'm hoping that as our our listeners are hearing this conversation, it maybe inspires them to think about how you know the th they could actually be f uh getting some support in areas that maybe they don't realize they can get.

Carly Caminiti: Well, I think just kind of backing up to to looking at a Gallup poll, the Gallup poll last year said that about 20% of people are actually engaged in their job. 20%. So that means 80% are somewhere, somewhere on the other end of the spectrum. And so when you combine those numbers of where everybody sits on the chart, it can look pretty good. You know, if there are a lot of people who are putting a seven or eight on the scale, and then you've got a bunch of people that are putting a two on the scale, it's gonna even out. And unless you have the right people in leadership who are actually going to be smart enough and not just look at the results as an aggregate, but kind of drill down into, okay, what are these 20% of people saying? What are they experiencing? I think, I think with even with surveys or with the way that we are kind of interacting with each other nowadays, we oftentimes just look at people as not even people, we look at them as kind of units that are working for us in, you know, in a spot in our budget. And we don't remember that they actually have a whole lot of thoughts, feelings, beliefs that they're dealing with every day, in addition to the struggles of being a human. And so until we kind of give people credit where credit is due and see them for who they are, that's gonna just keep continuing. That number is gonna keep at 20% until we actually start to have conversations with people to say, how can we make your job actually better? And burnout is contagious too. If there are people on your team that are a step away from leaving, then it's gonna infect the whole team dynamic. And so part of what I'm doing with teams and part of my belief about all of this is that you really need to look at the individual in order to affect team culture. If people don't have the tools to be able to regulate their own stress individually, then the whole team is not going to have the tools to regulate their stress as a team. And with coaching, with being able to kind of bring it back to honestly the most human basics that one could even think about, like breathing is one of them. Breathing is the tool that's using our own body. That's the most basic software that we have. And everybody has it installed already. We don't need to learn something or go listen to something or go read a new book in order to understand how our lungs can work. But there are so many people that you talk to that say, oh yeah, breathing, yes, I know. If I take deep breaths, whatever, it'll calm me down. But they don't actually put that into practice when it could be the kind of deciding factor between them being able to feel calm and collected before a meeting or them feeling like they're spiraling out of control. So going back to some of the basics of what we've already got with our human nature to be able to say, hey, let's tap into this and let's actually activate it and have some accountability and do it in a group setting with other members of our team. What I've seen in working with folks is that it's the results are just exponential. The burnout goes away. People feel more satisfied, people understand why they're doing the work and why it's important and why they are important in that particular organization. And so I think unless there is some kind of mechanisms or systems put into place for people, people's leadership to improve, then it's going to just be a problem that proliferates over and over again with people's dissatisfaction in their workplace.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, that that's a that's a powerful realization that when people are oftentimes not even aware of some of the stresses and anxieties that they're carrying and how it's impacting them. And, you know, if if there's not at some point where somebody is able to have that conversation with them, just like you described, you know, in groups heading like that, they are not even likely aware of just exactly how how close to burnout they are. And then all of a sudden, just some easy conversation from someone who knows how to do this, it just unlocks this the the stress and they they feel that that release. And it's not it's not like uh some sort of a magic drug or something. It's just, you know, something that is simple as remembering to breathe. And uh, you know, it seems like an odd thing to say, but um I've I've experienced the challenge with that on my own a few different times, and you know, it's it that I would have appreciated, particularly during the p pandemic, if if someone was really thinking about that, because I would have probably tried to help my own teams a lot more than I than I knew to going through that period. There's a point that you you you you ta touched on there really about it's the the design uh concept. And we're talking about design in the in in the context of technology and systems a lot, you know, like AI. But what at what point does a staffing problem actually become a system design problem? Because I think what you're describing, there's some systemic things that have to be in place long before you can introduce technology.

Carly Caminiti: This reminds me of a conversation I had last week because part of what I do is I also talk to CEOs and other senior leaders and organizations in order to get a read on what's happening in different types of organizations. And one of them said to me, Yeah, in in my circles with other leaders that I talk to, they don't care at all about firing people. They just say, okay, how fast can we get them out so we can get somebody else in? And that's how they look at the human. And so what happens is they end up replacing the human, which is extremely expensive, extremely expensive to find somebody else to get them onboarded. You've got institutional knowledge that just walked out the door. So you're bringing somebody else in and starting from zero. So by replacing somebody, you're actually having a huge impact financially on the organization and they just don't care. And that last part is what is the really important part. Where is the care? Where is the care about the human person? Because we can keep replacing the people into these roles, but what's going to happen? They're gonna burn out too. And so that's to me when it becomes a systems problem when you know you've got multiple people either on the same team or within the same role that all decide to leave. It's a leadership issue. There's a there's a lot of people out there who have really poor leaders. And the leaders might have gotten there because they're good at their technical skill. Like maybe they are a good doctor, so they end up rising in the ranks, or maybe they're a good plumber, so they rise up in the ranks. But just because you're good at what you do doesn't mean you're a good leader of people. And I think that that's where the design part needs to be looked at a lot more closely. Because if you have high performing staff that are deciding to leave the company, or they're being forced out of the company because of them just feeling like they just can't anymore, then that's when the company ends up losing a ton of money when they could have just invested it properly in their team in the first place. And that will again keep happening over and over until people start, the leaders at the top start making more um sound financial decisions and how to support the team.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, I mean it it seems and feels like a responsible financial decision, but in actuality, they're not actually looking at the the entire cost thing. That's as I've seen that sadly too many times as well. There's there's this other gap that you you you touched on too. It's like a lot of organizations that I've interacted with over the years have a um have a real challenge in terms of having career ladders uh for people who are really solid individual contributors, uh, particularly when you get into technical roles. But I think it's probably true in a lot of different ways. But there is this practice that uh for better, for worse, and mostly worse probably, where people the only option to advance their career is to give them oversight responsibilities or managerial responsibilities. But oftentimes we're not really teaching them some really basic things about what a human being actually needs in the workforce. I don't I don't think I've ever had that kind of conversation uh outside of something that was really deliberately set up for me from a coaching standpoint, just one-on-one.

Carly Caminiti: It's a really great thing that you can see that because a lot of people can't. A lot of people will say, Oh, everybody here is fine and our organization's thriving. When, you know, they can see they track things via numbers. So if the profits are looking good, they think the people are good. And that's where there's a huge mistake being made because they're not, again, looking at the people for people. A lot of times people will talk about not being able to be their full selves when they walk into work and they've got to leave some of their identities behind. And nobody likes to feel that way. And so what you're talking about with the managerial gap, that causes a lot of imposter syndrome in people. And they start to feel, even if they do get promoted because of a technical, you know, a technical proficiency that they have, they don't get the managerial training and then they end up feeling like they're not good enough. And then they start questioning, why did I get this promotion in the first place? And then they end up walking out the door because they don't feel like they were actually up to snuff on the job that they were doing. Again, this is something that in hindsight, if the organization actually valued people whenever people got promoted, they should get a coach, in my opinion. And I'm here to say my opinion. So that's my opinion. They should get a coach and they should get quality managerial training because you cannot just throw somebody into the deep end um when they've got a promotion if they've got other people underneath them. It is a huge gap in training and development of leaders.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, I I I've worked with a couple of different uh organizations that I think done a pretty decent job of really putting some things in place, you know, identifying you know, people who they they think are uh you know potential candidates for for leadership roles. It's not consistent across in any industries for that that I've seen, but there are some that do a reasonably good job of at least identifying people who have potential and sh and giving them opportunities to to get this kind of training before they throw them into the to the deep end of the pool. But it it it is a big gap, but it's so important because the first layer of uh oversight is where we probably have the biggest risks because we have people who are having the they're in these really public-facing roles. I mean, they're interacting with people, you know, one-on-one large scale, whether it's retail, whatever industry we're talking about. These people need support. They need someone to that actually understands what they need and actually can really help them navigate things on a day-to-day basis. It's not just enough to be able to tell them what to do, what not to do, or get, you know, column on making mistakes. I mean, there's just basic human support that needs that we have. I mean, w wh what are you seeing in terms of the the the levels where the you know these things are are so critically out of out of whack? Uh the the j what do we do about it? And and because I don't even know that people understand w what we're what we're doing to frontline staff sometimes.

Carly Caminiti: It's a great question. I think the answer for me is people tend to kind of look at this backwards of they tend to cut leadership development when budgets get tight. And that's the exact opposite that should be done. If you have a company, for example, that has a mass layoff, there are people still left standing at that company that lost their friends that are no longer working there, might have lost their supervisor, depending on who got laid off. Regardless of who got cut in whatever the layoff was, the people who remain standing there, now their psychological safety is completely under threat. They're they're now going home every day wondering if they should look for new jobs. They're wondering if the day's gonna come where their name is next on the chopping block. And their stress level is going to go through the roof. So while people are thinking about layoffs, if that's actually on the table, they should also be thinking about what are we doing to support the people who are still going to be here at this company? Because you can't put a line item on the cost of somebody not knowing how to have a hard conversation with their employees, or the cost of a team not trusting its leadership, or the cost of three people who decide to leave because they just can't handle their boss anymore or can't handle the workload anymore. Right. And all of that, it it goes so undetected because on exit interviews or even on the staff satisfaction surveys, people don't feel like they can be honest. They they are fearful now because of what has happened in this country and in the industry and know that if they want to continue working there, they've got to keep quiet and keep drowning in their own misery. And that is so dangerous. And when we talk about the healthcare industry, it's so dangerous because then your staff satisfaction is now bleeding into your patient care. And if people are feeling overloaded and like they're not feeling supported and like they just are running on fumes, then that's the energy that the patients are gonna pick up on. And they're gonna feel more rushed when they're dealing with the patients because of that exact thing, that they have numbers to meet, they have targets to hit, they're short staffed. Their leaders are saying, okay, well, we just are gonna be X number of people short staffed today, and we just need to keep going. They don't, they don't get a pay raise, they don't get a pat on the back even. It's just kind of the way it is. And so burnout doesn't happen overnight. Burnout happens from chronic stress that goes unnoticed for a long time or goes unaddressed, either by the person individually or the organization.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, you've you mentioned the the surveys. I uh I had a really great team that I that I was privileged to work with when I was in New York. And one of the things that, you know, we talked about with my my management team, when we're looking at the surveys, I mean, yeah, it's great when you get, you know, that high marks. So but but we're looking at the of course we look at that, we want to celebrate the the good things, but then we look at the areas where we we have some real significant things to work on. we had to like almost invent them, which was surprising because people were were actually uh giving us really good feedback. And and we just were there's there's three of us that work for actually two three different bosses, but we just put our we we put everything together to so that we could collectively really try to manage um a function regardless of who reported to who we just wanted to make sure that we're paying attention and we're support we're supporting the team. What the area that I tend to tended to spend the most time on was the middle the road stuff. And primarily because if we're not doing enough to even move the needle that's a problem. And we're just you know we're just one mistake away from you know hit hitting a hitting a bump because you know we're we're we're just not motivating people the right way. We're not paying attention to something. I I mean I don't really hear a lot about that but I think there's probably a lot of that and maybe talk about what what what you think the perception is for for an executive that's reading their engagement scores versus what the reality is from what you see on the ground. And then I mean maybe talk about some of this stuff that just seems to be hidden and not moving the needle enough.

Carly Caminiti: Yeah I I'm smiling because I think that we just have to use common sense because we all have probably filled out a staff satisfaction survey where we haven't told the full truth or fear or just for you know trying to be nice or whatever the case is there's something that happens with staff satisfaction surveys that people just feel like they can't be truthful. When I have spoken to HR directors, some of them know this and some of them don't or they're just ignoring it and they want to just the ones who don't or the ones who are ignoring it, they're the ones who just want to think that everything is going swimmingly at the organization. If you have anybody who says to you whether it's a CEO or an HR director or what have you that says people here aren't burnt out, they're completely out of touch with reality. They have absolutely no idea what's going on with their staff. If you look at big surveys across the globe, it looks that there's about 75% of people who would say that they feel burnt out. So if your staff satisfaction surveys aren't showing those numbers, then there's something that's going on either with the question in the way that it was asked, the people who don't feel safe talking about it or something else. But a CEO's reaction to whatever is being said on those metrics needs to be really looked at with a fine fine-tooth comb to say what's actually happening beneath the surface. Because when we look at why people leave their jobs, it's oftentimes because of their boss. And you talked about looking at the middle the middle stuff to me team trust is not built in big moments there's not a moment where you as an employee walk into a meeting and say, okay, great I feel so much trust for this team and my leaders that just doesn't happen. Trust is built in many, many small ways by repetitive actions that your leaders are taking. So if your leader is just not even visible on the floors of that hospital, if they're not in it with the doctors and nurses and everybody else who's making the hospitals function, if they have no clue because they're not really roaming around and seeing it firsthand, then again, they're going to be completely out of touch with what's actually happening inside of their organization. So unless you are actually conversing with the people who work there and really caring about what they're saying and doing something to address their concerns, then your obliviousness is going to cause the burnout to rise in the organization. And I think a lot of people underestimate the power that the leaders in the company have. So even if the kind of organization might have a culture of okay, don't work when you're off work, but then you've got people who are texting you asking you questions about previous patients or whatever else while you're off work, what kind of message is that sending it's usually from a superior too who might have questions about something that they're talking to you on your time off. So it's this these mixed signals that can be given to folks to say, oh we care about you and we want you to have time off and we understand that this job is really hard but then people sometimes unfortunately break boundaries and what happens is that these workers then just keep their heads down, they do their job, they respond to their leader who is texting them off hours and that's it. And so when the pe these people stop talking that's when the system really starts breaking down but it happens first with the relationship between a supervisor and supervisee.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah I I actually had a conversation at one point with an executive I just I admired the guy. I didn't work for him myself at the time but I just asked him he always seemed to be telling stories about his kids. He's you know doing things with them all the time they're very active um but a really really successful guy. He was at a very high level in the company and I said what what is what is it that you do that really kind of kind of protects that time and he said well I mean I have a demanding job but you know there's a start and stop time on my my day and my phone. And once that time comes it gets shut off and put away he said if everyone's asleep and I got things I'm thinking about I might draft a few emails but I don't send them until the morning because I know if people get an email from me they're gonna like jump out of bed and go do it. And I thought it's profound and my boss was sitting the other side of me and I just asked if I handled things the way he's handling it, would I still be employed? And I was told No, but is it the the exact kind of scenario where these expectations are are there and we don't realize how easily we start to concede on boundaries. And that would be a whole a whole conversation unto itself I imagine I mean I'd love to hear your thought on that and and you know how can leaders be more be more intentional about encouraging their their teams in a way because I mean let's face it any company's going to take as much as you want to give them yes um I think here is where I would say that there's some generational differences that come into play too because what you just described with your friend is easier for an executive to make those boundaries and keep them than it is for an entry-level worker.

Carly Caminiti: So there's a huge gap between the privilege of being able to decide oh I'm not going to work at 505 versus somebody who's new to the organization. And it truly is looked at like that. It is looked at that the people who are higher up do have more privilege and are able to keep their boundaries more. What you're seeing now especially with Gen X is that they are really starting to in Gen Z, they're really starting to say, you know what, I've got some serious needs and I'm going to make these needs known to you. And if you as a leader can recognize those needs and do something about them and meet them what where they're at and what they're asking from you, then great. I think that there's been a shift in the culture in the last 15 years or so with people actually feeling like they can voice their concerns. But again, it really depends on the organization and their own psychological safety of feeling like they can tell their supervisor what it is that they need. I mean it's great for your friend who's making time for his family and not sending emails at certain times, but that doesn't always work for people because they might feel that if they do get an email, like he was saying, people might jump out of bed and they really feel like they need to respond to it right away just because of the power dynamic. That's something that goes unaddressed too and it is another reason that people need managerial training because they don't recognize that there's even a power dynamic that exists. And I'm talking about senior leaders just thinking oh well if this is what I say and this is how I act then everybody else is going to follow in line. And it's like no that's not that's not true because you can't be friends with them. You can't if you're somebody superior then they're always going to be looking at you as if you have more power than them. And so that creates this very strange dynamic where the supervisor or maybe the CEO thinks that they are modeling this behavior that everybody else wants to latch onto. But in reality people who are down below are seeing it and saying no, I couldn't try that because of my position in the organization not being as important or my work not being as important. So there is a divide.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah I I have I've made mistakes so few times eventually I stopped beating my head against the wall because I realized I felt better when I didn't do that. But it but it was really that that that boundary setting because when you particularly when you change jobs, you want to make an impact and you know you just it's just very very easy to very sl slowly it's like a f a frog being boiled to death because they just think it's worm. It's it's the same scenario. You start to make those decisions one at a time and before you know it I mean you're you're getting burnt out because you and and it's not anyone else's fault. Oftentimes it's just we've not done a good job even setting our own boundaries um in in a reasonable manner. I mean I think it's it's probably one of the reasons that people struggle when they're growing their career and there's family dynamics and they're trying to balance all that and human beings need attention. They they just do and and sometimes priorities get kind of messed up you know w with because people are so motivated to to be successful in their career. But I'd love to if if you could you could have met me when I was going through that what would be some of the things that you would you would say to me because I I know there's a lot of people out there that are early in their careers, they're going through some pretty significant shifts and they they could make some of these same mistakes but I mean what would you say to somebody like me early in my career like that.

Carly Caminiti: The first thing that was coming up for me is you've got to understand what's inside and what's outside of your control. And I think so many people create scenarios in their heads and therefore then let them get bogged down by these scenarios that are completely not in their control. So even doing some sort of a Venn diagram or something where you're getting it out on paper and you're recognizing this is in my control, this is not and being able to say okay well so the things that are in my control, what are the steps that I can take even if it's the most it's the smallest step you can think of, it doesn't matter, but what's the smallest step you can take to get closer to what it is you want the outcome to be for them. And with all the things that are not within your control, you got to let them go. And this goes back to the need for coaching and the individual being recognized because we do not go to confidence school. We don't go to any sort of workshop or anything else. They don't typically say okay now you've got a new job now you've got to go do 12 weeks of coaching. If it were my company that's what I would have people do. But it's because you have to manage this stuff on an individual level. So what I would have told you back then is look, Chris, there's going to be lots of things that are going to be completely outside of your control in this job. Even if you think you want to set a boundary you might not be able to because of the confines of what that job actually is. But let's talk about the things that you can control. And there are so many people who take home work after they're done with their work for the day they close their computer and they continue thinking about it. They continue talking about it. It becomes the conversation at the dinner table why are we doing that? Why can we not give ourselves a break from the thing that we're being paid to do versus the thing that we want to be doing like spending time with our family. And so I think you know the conversation at the dinner table would be an example of something that you do have control in. And with you taking very small actions as as counterintuitive as this might seem the smallest actions end up really becoming big ideas and big changes in you as a person to be able to shift your mindset and therefore lead a happier and healthier life. But if you don't if you don't take the time to make the small changes then your life is going to continue as status quo and you're not going to be happy and healthy because all you're doing is thinking and talking about work. So I think like I think a lot of people they underestimate how much power they actually can have with the things that they're thinking about and talking about especially outside of work and how they're talking to themselves. The amount of negative thoughts that we have that go around our brains every single day is absurd. It's absurd. It's around 90% of our thoughts are negative. And if you can think about times when you've talked to yourself in ways that you would never talk to a child for example by saying maybe oh I'm so stupid or that was so dumb how could I have done that you know common things that people might say to themselves and then you say would I say that to a seven year old or a 10 year old and you would not talk to kids the same way that you talk to yourself. So how does that over time impact us as as just humans who are trying to do the best that we can it has a humongous impact. So again by changing the small things by changing those moments where we start to really berate ourselves and turn it into something else we're building new habits, new neural pathways that will allow us to be better people to ourselves that's where it all starts. We can't be a great leader to a team if we can't be a great leader to ourself. And it has to begin there and organizations need to understand that because burnout is something that only happens because of work. You do not get burnt out from your personal life you might use other words you might have other feelings but the burnout in in and of itself the World Health Organization classifies it as an occupational phenomenon. So because it's a workplace issue it requires a workplace solution but that solution is about the individual not about the whole entire company.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah that that number is staggering gotta be I guess we all had a have a sense that we do have negative thoughts a lot but I didn't realize it was 90% that's that's a staggering number and a really good reason to make sure these kind of conversations are happening.

Carly Caminiti: It is and if uh it'll be even more staggering if I tell you the studies have shown that there's about you have about 6000 thoughts a day. So if you take 90% of 6000 it's about 48,000 negative thoughts that you're having every day. So what does that do to us as a society when people are walking down the street, walking into the office or healthcare setting or whatever they're walking into and this is the voice that they have going on in their head. I mean and the only person who can change that is that person, right?

Chris Hutchins: Right. And we we do things that subject ourselves to fueling that as well whether it's social media, the news I mean there's so many different things that just constantly are feeding that pattern. It's we we have to do things on purpose to to break that or if you know it's it's not a happy life if you if you can't find those ways to release it. And I I I love that you're talking about it because I hope people are hearing this because you're not weird. You're not you know some rare person that's dealing with all this stuff. We're all dealing with it. We are you it's just that's that's just human nature we're all we've all gonna you know learn how to manage these things.

Carly Caminiti: Yeah and I think that that's why the team approach that I do with teams and organization works so much because when they get into a room with other people for 12 weeks on the 75 minutes that I have with them, the titles go away. That's the only place where then over time it does take a couple of weeks where people start to feel like they can be vulnerable, like they can be honest, like they're not just answering a question on a staff satisfaction survey that nobody really cares about. It's a place where they can see the humanity in the other people and start to empathize with them as their boss, as their colleague, as another person. And it's only truly in that when we can start to see the goodness, beauty, dignity and worth in the other person sitting on the Zoom screen across from us that we can start to change our reality. We can start to change our team and the company and the way we treat patients and all of that again goes back to our ability to empathize which is something AI cannot do.

Chris Hutchins: We're coming up on time I can't believe how quickly it flies. I really enjoy you know hearing your perspectives and the and what you're what you're saying and I'm learning a lot already for myself. So if if no one else ever listens to this, I don't think that's going to be a problem. But I'm learning so I really appreciate it. I I want to just have you talk just a little bit before we get into the you know the look looking out to the to the future and you know some some interesting uh thoughts I'm sure that you have about where we're headed what we need to be doing right like right now. But maybe talk a little bit about you know what what it would look like for an executive who really wants to really wants to engage with you after hearing you know your approach and understanding there's some dynamics that they really don't have a handle on. What would an engagement look like in in in you know how I mean obviously the organizations are different but maybe just talk going to talk what that would look like for an executive team.

Carly Caminiti: Sure. Well because the the 12 week program works so well in reducing burnout and really preventing burnout preventing people from leaving that's what I'm focusing on now. So it's a 12-week program that's called the 5C Leadership performance system. I call that a system because that's what it is. It's not just conversations it's not just feel good pat yourself on the back workshops. It is a system in order to give people a unified language for them to start thinking differently and that ends up impacting themselves and the whole team and there's data to back that up. So that is primarily what I'm doing. So if people wanted to engage with me, I would be happy to have a conversation with them to see if it's the right fit for their organizations. Honestly the only people that are going to end up saying yes, this is the right fit for us is if they have leaders that actually get it. And if they have leaders that understand the ROI that comes from doing things like this is just massive. It is such a better return on investment for people to invest now before people are completely burnt out or when they're just starting to create a team, maybe it's a Series A that's just starting and they don't have it together yet, this is the perfect kind of time where people can say, okay, what can I do in order to create the leadership culture that I want here and if they think it's just going to happen, there will be a culture that happens good, bad or indifferent. And so if they want some sort of control over what their vision is, then it's a great thing for them to invest in. So just going back to the ROI, I mean you take the fact that if you can prevent one single person from leaving the organization and walking out with that institutional knowledge, it will be way less money for them to work with me than it would be for them to lose somebody else. So that's primarily what I'm doing. If I do have a couple of clients that are just one-on-one and those are usually CEOs, executive directors of the like some sort of senior leadership role, that is a lot more one-on-one, really deep kind of going into their beliefs and how they're limiting themselves in whatever it is that they want. If they want to be the leader that they have in their minds, a lot of times people can use a thought partner for that. So that's what a coach does a coach doesn't give their opinion a coach really just helps people by asking them questions and helping them figure out their own answers. And so that's what I like about it. It's not consulting in that sense it really is just let's get in on a call and talk this through and I can be a sounding board but you're gonna be the one to figure it out. And that's why they actually change that's why it's sustainable that's why there's science to back up what coaching actually is and does because it's the person making their own changes. It's not me saying this is what you should do. So I'm happy to have people go to my website and and they can find more information about what I'm talking about there. But I really think that this is maybe I'm biased, but I don't think I am I really think this is the best investment that any organization could invest in for their team because it will make everybody love their job that much more, which will help profits, it will help care, it will help whatever kind of outcomes you're looking for. all starts with your employees.

Chris Hutchins: And and they're they're listening. Luke, I'll make sure that all all of this material will be available to you in in the show notes. You'll know how to get it get in touch with Carly. But if you're a CEO and you're, you know, maybe not really sure if you're getting this getting this the the the straight talk that you need, maybe maybe a a phone call or an email to connect with Carly would would be a really good move for you to make to really start to make sure that you're you're getting the getting the right story and you're you're moving moving in a positive direction with your team because we're we're at a time where trust is going to be the thing that makes or breaks us when we go through these kind of transformations. I mean it's it's clear there's a lot of lines being drawn and some of the technology companies are going so fast and they don't care if we're we're ready for it from a governance or any other perspective, frankly. So you know leaders need to take advantage of the opportunities while they have them and they can get some some good good advice and and learn some skills to really help your organization I I encourage you to do that. As we kind of line down there there's a couple questions I I'd like to to ask you. First I mean if you could change an assumption that leaders are making right now about their workforce, is there something that stands out in your mind what what what that would be yes the assumption that I would change for leaders to stop making about their workforce is that they're okay.

Carly Caminiti: They're not okay. Everything about the world is not okay for anybody who is working for corporate America right now. It is a very wild time and most people are in survival mode. So their brains are not even functioning properly because they're kind of going to this primitive place of how do I just keep my paycheck and they're not being able to be even creative or calm because they're just so focused on the stress. So yeah it the the incorrect assumption would be that your people are okay.

Chris Hutchins: They're not I guess I'll wrap things up I would I'd love to know if if you had a a bold prediction about 2026, whether it's in the workforce space, whether it's AI related I know one of the the things that obviously I like to talk about is picking up the signal through the noise and there's a lot of noise. And maybe you maybe highlight one or two things that we that you think we should be looking for, maybe even leaning into a bit if we can't I think for me what comes up two things.

Carly Caminiti: Number one is there's a lot of noise with AI. And I know that this podcast talks about it all the time and I know that people are constantly just comparing notes on which AI to use all of that is true. And at the same time it goes back to what I said at the very top of the podcast of you can't replace human connection and we all need human connection. So my prediction is actually that AI will push us back towards human relationships and focusing on seeing each other more, on picking up the phone more on stopping with just having everything be in text and it will really kind of make us to a full circle of oh actually now I understand why it's so much better to be in a room with people than on a screen or now I understand why it's so much easier to not have conflict with my boss when I talk to her on the phone as opposed to via email. And so I think that we're kind of going through this test of time to say hey we've got all these tools to kind of put in your face to show you that nothing can replace human-to-human connection.

Chris Hutchins: That would be the first thing this is one of the reasons I was so excited to have you come on and I'm I I am going to do everything I could do to make sure that your voice is out there. Is it what you're saying is really important. Your voice is an important one for people to be listening to and I I can't thank you enough for for coming on the show and and being willing to have this kind of conversation with me. It's it's it's very timely it's very ne very much needed and I I look forward to to seeing your your continued success and and I know your business will will thrive and I I can't wait to hear um more success stories. There's there's a lot more people that will be benefiting wouldn't once they uh once they hear what you have to say once they engage with you. So thank you so much for being on the Signal Room and I can't wait to hear from you again what what what's going to be going on probably have to have you back on because I know that we didn't scratch the surface of some things that we probably need to talk about. This is not about technology to your your point it early is about people and relationships.

Carly Caminiti: Well thank you so much. It was such a pleasure and I wish you all the best as well and continued success with the Signal Room.

Chris Hutchins: Thank you. That's it for this episode of the Signal Room if today's conversation sparks something in you an idea a challenge or perspective worth amplifying I'd love to hear from you. Message me on LinkedIn or visit Signalroompodcast dot com to explore being a guest on an upcoming episode. Until next time stay tuned stay curious and stay human