Healthcare Experts on Ethical AI in Operational Reality: AI Transformation Strategies and Healthcare Innovation

MarKeisha Snaith: I think that leadership doesn't ultimately influence culture, but I think that leadership manufactures culture through repetition. If you have a rotten apple at the top, it trickles down because over time, when you allow those things to continue to happen or leaving those people in place, they then in turn hire people that are similar to them. And now you have this whole culture of just like rotten apples, you know, Gen Zs coming in and becoming leaders. And I think that people are very afraid of that. Younger generations tend to really disengage fast when that alignment breaks, and once it happens, you can't fix it. Like there's no forgiveness. It's always been a clarity issue.

Chris Hutchins: MarKeisha Snaith has spent her career doing something most leaders avoid: building structure inside systems that are already moving. She is the director of AI security governance and the founder of XIR, a strategy and advisory firm where she works at the crossroads of governance, technology, and organizational leadership. Her clients span government, health care, finance, and hospitality. What they share is a common challenge. They are trying to adopt innovation without destabilizing what they have already built. MarKeisha advises executives on aligning culture with strategy, designing governance frameworks that hold under pressure, and reading the signals organizations tend to miss before friction becomes a crisis. She brings a direct perspective and a long view. And today, she brings both to the Signal Room. MarKeisha, welcome to the Signal Room. I'm so excited to have you joining me today. I I know we we talked the first time quite a lot while back, but there's just been so much going on. It's taken us a little bit to reconnect. I've seen you've been quite busy with your business, which is obviously that's an exciting and good thing. And hopefully we'll get into some of the good things that you're you're seeing in in your work. What kind of brought us together, I think initially was we we were at a conference out in Las Vegas and starting to understand what's going on in the bigger picture with AI across multiple industries. And certainly it was fascinating at the Put Data First Conference. And you know, it just got me thinking about a lot of the different aspects of the transformation that we're facing with AI. And there's a whole lot more to do with people than there is even technology, particularly when it comes to culture and trust and the organizational dynamics, leadership on every level. So I'm I'm very excited to get your perspective on some things today. Um if we can start with, you know, really in that trust and operational reality space. When organizations are talking about transformation, culture often determines you know, the success or failure or the pace that an organization can move forward, or whether they they make or they stall or whatever. So what are some of the things that you're seeing from your perspective that where leadership decision is really shaping the direction? And what do you see that's really working well and what's not? Is it more of a cultural thing, or is it is it some other dynamic that you're seeing that that's really either driving or maybe slowing things down?

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I guess I want to start with, because I I think we get asked this question a lot, especially being in our leadership positions. You know, what does leadership look like? And you know, you are right in saying that or hinting at that leadership decisions impact culture, right? And I think on a more deeper level, it impacts culture because culture is more so the accumulation of repeated leadership signals. So what I mean is it's not about like what's written on the wall, right? It's what's getting rewarded, what's getting escalated, what's being ignored, what's getting funded, right? And if leaders are consistently prioritizing speed over control, we get that a lot in the AI realm, right? Right, the culture becomes more risk tolerant. And if let's say a leader or leaders, you know, punish people being transparent when different mistakes surface, then the culture becomes more defensive. And let's say if leaders reward that cross-functional collaboration, which is what's really necessary to succeed in an organization, then the culture becomes aligned. So I think that every decision that leaders are making really is tied to what matters the most, what behavior, or not so tied to, but every decision communicates, I should say. What matters the most, what behavior is safe, what behavior is career limiting. That's a big one. How risks are really truly, you know, handled. And I think all of those are a mix of good and bad. And I'm, you know, just from my examples, like we I think we can really pull out what's the good and then what's the bad leadership. And I think that a lot of organizations are very complex, but culture is really downstream of overall leadership behavior. And I think that if you have like a rotten apple at the top, it trickles down because over time, when you allow those things to continue to happen or leaving those people in place, they then in turn hire people that are similar to them. And now you have this whole culture of just like rotten apples, ideally, right? I hope that at one point, well, this is just I think something that we could talk about is because I I recently read something about you know, Gen Z coming in and becoming leaders. And I think that people are very afraid of that. I've been in I've been in some conferences where that's talked about. Even millennials, they're saying are scary and they don't know what that shift is going to look like. So we should definitely get into that. But I do just want to say that, you know, it's really built in and it's patterns over time. Um and I think that leadership doesn't ultimately influence culture, but I think that leadership manufactures culture through repetition.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, I think that's a really important distinction too. It's a challenge if there's not consistency. And you know, it used to be that you could talk about the standards and what set a culture, and it carried a lot more weight than it does now. You know, 20 years after the point in time, you know, the majority, probably seven, nine or ten people said they trust the government or whatever that number was. It's not anywhere near that now. And people's experience is going to override what they know as things are supposed to be based on what people are saying and what the policy is. And what you're talking about is that consistency point. And whatever you're doing consistently, that's going to set the culture and the level of trust that you're going to be experiencing in the organization. And if, you know, a a drive-by conversation or a town hall a couple times a year, that that's not going to change the culture. If you've got a culture problem, you're at least not making it better, but it's likely it's taking a di a turn in a different direction, I think. I mean, would you agree with that?

MarKeisha Snaith: I do. Absolutely. I definitely think that, you know, we had this conversation when we, you know, first tried it before even getting to this point about overall leadership. And then just surprisingly, the bad ones stay, right? They have nowhere else to go. So they kind of just they stay over time and everybody else great ends up leaving and going elsewhere to be in better companies. And I really want us to get to a point where we have people at the top who are consistently thinking about the importance of leadership training. Um, because I don't, I don't think that it's all about getting the certifications and getting the degrees. Like at some point, you know, you need to ensure that you are training your leaders on a regular cadence. And it's not just once a year, it's not just every three years. I think it should be quarterly. And I think that it should be a training across the board, not just, oh, these are people who, you know, could potentially become managers or getting the training. No, the people who are consistently making the decisions, they need to be the ones who understand what true leadership is, you know, what works well and what doesn't. You know, and I've worked for great leaders and I've worked for terrible leaders. And unfortunately, as they say, people either leave for bad pay or bad leader of bad leadership overall.

Chris Hutchins: So can we dig in a little bit on this? Because I I I think I want to make sure that people understand that we're not talking about leadership in in just in the context of AI, because that's there's an important distinction here. And what I think can get missed very easily is that in a lot of industries, healthcare, I know it's been this way, certainly, in particular technical areas, it's it's been this way. The only career path for someone who's excellent from a technology standpoint tends to put them over into a role where they've got managerial responsibility. And that doesn't necessarily prepare them for what they're stepping into. And organizations have varying levels of programs that they have in place to provide the training for people as they're entering into that level of oversight and responsibility. I mean, if you talk a little bit about what you see out there, because I think this might be one of those inflection points where if we take the opportunity and double down and invest there to make sure that we're sharing that up, we're gonna be good. But if we don't, it could actually go in a very, very different direction, even with the best of intentions.

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, um at the point where I am in my career, I've been fortunate to move up in leadership and stay as an individual contributor. Now, I say I'm very, I'm very lucky for that because a lot of people now are not looking to be in managerial positions where they have to, you know, oversee direct reports. Right. And in a lot of companies, I want to say they're still doing this because at some point you do have to have direct reports, right? When you get into more of like the, in a lot of places, director, VP, etc. Right. So you're you're going to have direct reports. But I've also seen a shift in companies to where now they're trying to hold off a little bit longer from putting people in positions to manage other people. Now, from my experience, and I'll just give this example. I um at an organization I was working, um financial institution, just for some context, they were doing organization changes because they had noticed that there was little to no room for people to grow. So like you either went from like, you know, a mid-level to a senior to a manager to a director, whatever. And so there was not that like extended in between. And so they made a shift to add in some additional, I guess, cushion there to where now you have like assistant director, assistant manager before you get to regular manager, before you get to senior manager, right? Like that, I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about. And they do it a lot in consulting too. But the one thing that they did was they offered leadership training to me at a senior level because they thought if we don't offer her, and this this was a c this was for other people too, but if we don't offer her any leadership training, she's not going to want to grow here and she's going to want to leave. The only issue with the leadership training is who it was, you know, pushed by, like who was hosting this leadership training, right? It wasn't somebody from the outside, it wasn't a third party coming in. It was HR, internal HR. And these were not necessarily individuals trained to do this type of leadership training. And so when you asked me what I really got from that leadership training, I didn't really get anything. It was a month's worth of worth of training, about two hours each week. So, you know, that didn't really give me much. And then it was like my manager got the sign-off, where Keisha did training, she's good to go, type of thing. Um, but it didn't really aid in my success to where I am now, where I am operating in a director position. Fortunately, along the way, I've well, number one, I'm a natural-born leader, so that helps. But two, I've done work outside of the workplace. But unfortunately, things like that just did not aid in my success towards being a leader. And I'm just afraid that that's happening across the board because it's one of those things that get said maybe once a year that hey, we need to be training certain people within the organization. Think about the people in your team who could possibly become managers, but they're not there yet. And then let's just offer them the training, no follow-up, internal, you know, HR hosting it. And it is what it is. We're checking a box. And that checking the box is what causes issues where, you know, leaders have some like paralysis and or they have issues accepting risk, or, you know, they're penalizing people for for wanting to innovate in, you know, like all of these bad things that that happen from leadership. And it's simply just because maybe they're they're not born to lead, maybe they just haven't been trained appropriately, maybe they've been grandfathered in. It's so many different factors, but we definitely need to get a hold on what great leadership looks like. And the people at the top, the executive, the C-suite, they need to understand that it starts with them. And whatever leadership they're doing, it's going to trickle down into the rest of the company.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, that's an excellent point. I I think the other side of it that I think can be easily lost. I mean, if you're in a position at a senior executive level, you might not be thinking about that, the layer that's what we're talking about where the the biggest risk is. And it really tends to be that first level of supervision that for the folks in your operational areas happen to be in, that can be really the difficult place for you because you need them to understand the organizational decision and strategy and the direction that you're taking. And if that uh level of the organization isn't really clear about it, and they're not sure themselves whether their directions that we're hearing is the right one, they're not definitely not equipped to be reinforcing what you're wanting them to reinforce. But I think when you deal with such a massive transformation that we are, people are hearing about technologies, whether we like it or not, they're being exposed to them. There's all kinds of perspective, and there's a lot more opinions than people and out outlets to get them from. So it's really important that we understand that this is really that first level where the frontline team are interacting with whether whether it's a customer, a patient, whatever it is, that interaction is really a place that we've got to pay attention to because that first line where they're gonna get support, they'll know if they're getting real the right um level of support or not. They might be getting discouraged from something that you really don't want them to be discouraged from, or the worse, they're they're being encouraged to do things that you that you really don't want them to do. And it's in a time people are trusting more the ones that look, sound, act, and think like them than they are outside voices. We have to be really cognizant of that and make sure that we're providing that right level of training and make sure that we're instilling these principles in the leaders that are that first line of defense, I think. I mean, yeah, and you're you're coaching people constantly at in multiple levels of their career, coming from all kinds of different perspectives. You talked about Gen Z, Gen X a little bit. I mean, there's a lot of nuance even in the different groups, right?

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we have to also remember that people are like like you said, people are hearing more about these emerging tools everywhere, but they're also forming their opinions from social media, right? These younger groups, right? Vendors, right? So like us being on the technology side, we are influenced by vendors that we speak to on a regular basis, internal rumors that happens too, external headlines, things that are being put out there, you know, just anything. And so, you know, I think that there's more information than there is structure, unfortunately. And, you know, if leadership doesn't equip those frontline supervisors that you're talking about with clear messaging and clear guardrails and clear decision rights and support channels, then those supervisors can't confidently um reinforce the direction. So there's like a lot of people that are not taking ownership or responsibility. And that's where that strategy piece is just always so important. You know, I think that, you know, trust is built at the end of the day. And if the frontline supervisors are just unsure, then your experience reflects that uncertainty. And that's also the reality of it, too.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, and you I don't think we've gotten into this too much, but uh I I'd love to get your thoughts if you want, if you don't mind, just did what are some of the differences when you think about how uh somebody in Gen Z or Gen X or you know the millennials, what are some of the distinctions between how they trust, what that what do they need to engage in a way that they can they can get over any trust barriers they might have? Are there differences in that level?

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, I actually love that question. I think that it comes from like when we talk about the Gen Zs, the Millennials, the Gen X, I think that, you know, the difference is not necessarily worth ethic or loyalty. We hear a lot about loyalty, right? Like companies aren't loyal, so they don't feel the need to be loyal to. But um I think that all of those things do create trust. So for example, trust is created through transparency and being authentic, right? Right. So, and this is just from what I know, but or just from research I've done. But Gen Z, for example, you know, Gen Zs have grown up in an environment of constant information. So they consistently expect transparency about decisions that are being made. Like they want to be looped in, they want a seat at the table, they're expecting maybe clarity about why a change is happening. So, you know, growing up when you ask your parents, but why, but why? Like, you know, they're expecting those things, visible accountability. So, for we can talk about like Amazon layoffs, for example. They want the accountability from the people at the top to say, you know what, we are laying people off because we don't want to pay them anymore. Like they're looking for things like that. And I'm not saying this is what Amazon is saying by no means, but that's the type of accountability they're looking for, right? And they're also looking for, I would say, that alignment between the values that you state. So, you know, you go on everybody's website, they have their values, their mission, their vision, but then the but then there's performative leadership, right? So for them, you know, they're quick to disengage if they sense that type of leadership. And trust is built when leadership explains those trade-offs honestly, and it's not just for compliance. And I think too with millennials, and I'm partially so I'm I'm a millennial. So for me, some of the things I touched on for Gen Z's, I I kind of agree with, but I think that for millennials and from my personal experience, trust is really through having a purpose and being able to grow. That's a big thing for me personally, right? So if I'm able to see a clear path for development, I love that, right? Because I know that if I'm at this company, if I do X, Y, and Z, I'm going to get here and here and here and here. So there's a path for that. Or for my work that I'm doing, what how does it align to the broader mission? That's been a lot of the times if I'm working for an organization, I don't know how any of my work aligns to the mission. So it's like I'm doing things and I never see how that has influenced the overall company, which to me makes me feel I don't know if I have a purpose here. And I think feedback too. I think millennials love that real time feedback. If they're doing something Wrong, let them know so that they know how to fix it immediately and not just be guessing or you hear, you know, in your review, like, oh, remember that time in January when you didn't do X, Y, and Z? Well, how could I fix it if you didn't tell me? And just to not leave the Gen X's out. But I think for Gen X's, I think for them, they're really looking at more so consistency. So they're looking for that decisiveness, they're looking for that comfort, that stability, autonomy, I think works, leaders who demonstrate capability. You know, for them, like I don't think it's like, I don't think that they're pressed by rhetoric. I think that they're really persuaded by execution at the end of the day. So when leadership follows through on what they say they're going to follow through, right? So I think across generations, we can say that the way to consistently build that engagement with them is be clear in your direction, have visible confidence, you know, make sure you're fair in your decision making, make sure that you're transparent, make sure that you're living by the values that you preach. Um, I think that those are all things that can help with trust. But I think overall, younger generations tend to really disengage fast when that alignment breaks. And once it happens, you can't fix it. Like there's no forgiveness with the younger generation.

Chris Hutchins: That's an important thing to know because you don't have a whole lot of uh opportunities to get it right. And particularly when we're going through such a crazy transformation. I don't I remember back in the 90s, I mean, I don't think any of us would have been able to do the crystal ball trick and figure it out that we where we'd be with the internet.

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, right.

Chris Hutchins: I I I think we're all more dependent on technologies now than we've ever been. And this is a whole nother order of magnitude beyond anything that we've seen before that we're facing right now.

MarKeisha Snaith: I know, I know. And remember how I said like the conversations about millennials and Gen Z specifically, right? Stepping into leadership, what is that going to look like? If I'm saying that the, I think, you know, older generations can tolerate things for a longer time, right? We understand patience, but with the younger generation having this expectation that if you don't get it right the first time, they lose that trust and they disengage, what does that look like from a leadership standpoint? Like, I don't know what running a company looks like when you disengage fast, you know, when alignment is there.

Chris Hutchins: That's a real concern. I I think the the the dynamics are just more like this probably than ever. I don't think this is a new phenomenon, but when you're going through any kind of transformation, whether it's technology or the organization is growing, or you know, maybe you're expanding your business into new new areas of technology or whatever. And this is in any kind of company, there there's a number of ways you transform. But the the interesting pieces of that really are I think around, well, how do you message and how do you lead through periods of time where you know sometimes you know that things are going to be really disruptive, and you might even know how disruptive they're going to be. Sometimes you don't. But a person who's downstream of decision makers, and if you're an executive who's dealing with this kind of stuff, there's some really difficult lines you have to tow in order to be able to get things right from a timing perspective. Because I might know that we're going to be making some changes and re-organing something, and it's going to affect a whole bunch of functions that if I disrupt them at this particular moment in time, it is going to hurt the ability of the business to take care of its obligations. Right. And I want to be telling people as honestly as I can, and as soon as I can, everything that I know so they're prepared because they are the company. They're why we have success in any organization. But there's a delicate balance between being 100% transparent and comfortable that that risk is going to pay off versus saying one thing too many, and God forbid you've maybe been inconsistent before, not delivered on something, you may start seeing people jump ship because they don't trust you. They don't believe what you're telling them. So that balance piece of it has always been a challenge. But I think where we are now, it's really more important than it's ever been to really be as upfront as you possibly can be, but maybe more importantly than giving them the answers that you do know or telling them straight out the ones you don't. They can at least live with that a little easier than they can. It's like, I did style, I don't even think he's telling the truth.

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, and you can, yeah, you can definitely tell when somebody's like beating around the bush consistently. Um, you know, I've worked I worked with leaders who absolutely don't necessarily know, like they have no right reason to be in their roles, but they're there because they knew somebody. My thing is that's why you build a team that's smarter than you, right? You build up that team to support you, make you look great, and then you deliver what you need to deliver to people up higher that you report to, right? And so I I like what you say about being like that transparency also means being honest and being open, right? And I think people respect you more when you can just come out and say, like, listen, I don't think um, I don't think I know everything. Well, you when you come out and say you don't that you don't know everything because nobody knows everything. But if you say, you know, whatever I don't know, if I can, if I can ask you and and if I can, you know, if you can help me work through some of these issues or these problems, like would you be willing to do that? So many people are like, yeah, of course. You know, but for the ones that are not that that just kind of want to be like their ego's getting in the way, that'll always be their downfall. Um, especially when it's in, you know, in these organizations and people talk too.

Chris Hutchins: So yes, for sure. You're in a unique position because of the work that you do. You're you're seeing people at, you know, all different areas of their in moments in their career, different types and levels of transition. Maybe if you could just put it your coaching hat on for just a minute. Uh I want to want to get your th your your thoughts and what's really important for people who are early in their career, maybe some people who are wanting to grow but they feel uncertain. But also what are if you're in a position of executive leadership, what do you need to know about your teams and what what they're dealing with? What are some of the things that you're hearing about that they're probably not because these folks are just not feeling like they've got enough of inform enough information to really be driving their own careers, even. They don't even know what conversations that they should be having sometimes. But the fear factor now is probably more real than it's ever been. People are really afraid of disruption. And in particular, AI is going to be the the end of their jobs. I mean, and I know you I'm sure you hear that frequently. But maybe if you can just kind of speak to the different perspectives of the types of people that you're interacting with, just so there's some visibility, I think, across the boards how people understand the levels that they're at, but also the levels above them. What are some of the things that are concerning and that they should be aware of that will actually help them to improve their positioning in their not only in their own career, but how how they're uh leading and showing up in their company?

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, I think that's a really great question. From the coaching side, what I see consistently is that uncertainty comes from a lack of clarity. I think a lot of people associate it with not having the capability to do something. But it's always been a clarity issue, no matter what level a client comes to me at, they don't know how to position themselves. And I will say for for the professionals who want to grow but feel very uncertain, there are a few things that matter the most when I talk to clients. First is to have identity clarity, right? So it's really important that you understand how you're positioned, not just what it is that you do, but it is important to know what problems you solve and how they are generally perceived within an organization. Um, a lot of people don't have that clear understanding. So I think that kind of comes back to where I said purpose is an important, like, well, for millennials, it's um purpose and growth. So I think this kind of ties back to knowing your purpose, right? Like what makes you unique? And what makes you unique is when you understand the problems that you solve and how that shows up inside of an organization. So understanding your identity is very important. And that's not even just in the workplace, it's also personally, right? You should understand who you are.

Chris Hutchins: Um I just want to an exclamation point on this because uh I'm on the other side of the spectrum when it comes to where I am in my career, but I've only recently started to have to think about things differently. And typically when you're talking about what what are the the skill sets and the things what you're good at, people are thinking about things from a credential standpoint. They're not thinking about what kind of problem they solve. And that's a really important distinction. Like you you've been coaching people this way for a long time. But if you could just kind of repeat that because I think it's really important that people understand this is not about your resume.

MarKeisha Snaith: Right. Yeah. So you're very right about that. Um, and it's funny because living in the DMV area, we get asked a lot, like when you go to networking events, like, oh, you know, they don't care about your name. They want to know what you do for a living. And so your natural response is to say, oh, you know, my name is MarKeisha, and you know, I do X, Y, and Z, and I have a master's and a PhD. You know, like that's what they're thinking. But you make a very great point. It is not about what's on your resume, and it's not just about your credentials. It need you need to understand that anybody, to be honest, anybody can get that cert that you have. Just about anybody can go to school and get that degree, right? Because you graduate with a bunch of people at the same time, right? You know, dissertation may be different, but at the end of the day, what's going to make you stand out is understanding yourself, understanding what you have to offer, what problems you solve, and what people perceive that as inside of any organization that you have worked at. That is what is so important. That's called identity.

Chris Hutchins: I love that. That's clarity that people need to hear. If they haven't heard it before, they're hearing it now. We'll put it on blast for them.

MarKeisha Snaith: Right. Big identity. I would say another thing, too, that I see from clients is that visibility, right? So I think that a lot of people they get stuck where they are. Um, and I don't think that growth happens in silence, right? As they say, closed mouths don't get fed. It's the same thing. Many talented people are doing excellent work, but they're not communicating their impact in a way that leadership can see.

Chris Hutchins: So that's important. So what what are some of the blockers that you you typically see that people they're just not realizing that how they're showing up?

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah. So a major one that I talk about, and people are so surprised when I say this. There are those people at work, their manager will give them a task, they'll complete it super, super fast. Their manager will give them another task, they complete it super, super fast. Their manager starts associating them with somebody who gets things done fast, and now they're the go-to person to do everything. That is doing excellent work, but it can also hinder you in the workplace because with you now being that go-to person that will do almost any and everything for your manager, you are not somebody who generally is going to come to the table and say, you know what? I'm not gonna do this without a raise. I'm not gonna do this without a brand new title. And you can easily get stuck there because you are not somebody who recognizes, and this is generally how it is, you're not somebody who recognizes that when you overdo it without asking for the compensation, what is the point of me giving you compensation if you've been doing it this entire time? I'll give you a raise, sure, at the end of the year, but the person who's slow and steady, in my opinion, does so much better in the workplace.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, that that that's such an important point. I think people don't all define balance for themselves the the same, but it's it's not even so much about the balance thing as it is just having a clear understanding of what it is that you're you're responsible for, making sure that you're managing it in a responsible way, identifying where the th the areas are that you want to learn and grow, but you do need to keep boundaries. Maybe you don't have a a family at home and you don't mind working a little extra in the evening, but you have to think about that because whatever pattern you set, it's going to be expected from you. I think everyone's probably listening and has done this to themselves at some point. They just took on a little bit more out of the kindness of their heart. And then tomorrow, if they don't do it by 10 o'clock, they're late.

MarKeisha Snaith: Exactly. You get it.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, it's it's just it's it's a common trap I think people get into. And I think, and maybe you could talk a little bit about this too. I know we're we're coming up on time, but I think expectations are something to really make sure that we we think about because w what we do today does set expectations. And we we can easily miss um some of the best opportunities to learn and grow if we're always just trying to be the good egg, whatever you want to call it. You know, I'm gonna be reliable, I'm gonna do the things that need to be done, and that's all great. But there's also this area of responsibility for driving it to the direction of your own career. And happiness is defined differently for everyone, but you at least want to leave opportunities in your life for the things that matter. I mean, what about you decide you you want to have a family? What about you have a child for the first time? Or you okay, maybe it's a pet for you, whatever that is. But you you know, you can put yourself in a really difficult spot by not understanding clearly that an organization and employer is always going to be willing to take whatever additional effort you want to put in. Why would they not?

MarKeisha Snaith: Exactly. They're a business at the end of the day. And I don't think people understand that either. You know, people think about the job search process as one that's just like, I don't know, they just think it's like one plus one equals two. And honestly, it's about understanding that businesses are about making money, right? They have to make money to be able to continue to employ people. So if you are not positioning yourself in a way that is showing an employer how you can come in and make them additional money, then you're simply not standing out. And I also want to say, even for those people who are just always doing the task that they're given over and over and over and never, never setting boundaries for themselves, yes, you are contributing to the success of the organization, but you may not be contributing to what leadership actually needs. And it is so important sometimes to not just take the task that your manager's giving you, but to also be present in those meetings with their bosses and to listen in on what exactly they're looking for from the business side every single quarter. Because that's what you need to be spending the extra time doing. That's how you stand out. It's not just being a task pusher and a task pleaser.

Chris Hutchins: Now that that's an excellent point. Because I think maybe it doesn't get accounted for like it used to be. But I mean, there was a time where I'm sure you were this way too. If I know you at all, I'm sure I'm pretty sure you've done this, but I've seen something that like I knew that there had to be had to be a better way. I'd go home at night, I'd get on the computer, I start Googling, reading whatever I could find to figure out how do I solve for something. No one tasked me with it, but I'm like, I know there's got to be a better way. That's great. You know, because you know it needs to get done, you're faithful and you're cranking it out. But maybe take some time and do some of these things to help yourself. Those are oftentimes the things that open up opportunities for you because you're solving something that maybe someone else hasn't even seen it need to be solved, which is, I mean, that's even more exciting when that happens.

MarKeisha Snaith: So and I'm happy you you said that because people get tied to pleasing the organization. People don't think about pleasing themselves and what career progression looks like personally for themselves. And that is where that career branding comes into play. You are also a brand outside of the company you work for. Opportunities will come to you, yes, when you water those seeds, right? Plant the seeds and water them. So, like the same way that we are showing up, right, Chris? Like on LinkedIn, for example, we're being thought leaders, we're writing articles, we're doing white papers, we're showing up at conferences, we're doing this podcast session. Like that is branding your career. That is how you're going to get those opportunities. And you can also show leadership. Listen, I can be that person that this company needs as well to showcase what the company's doing, right? Outside of just the tunnel. But content creation is so big now, influencing is so big. Organizations are wanting to use people to get their name out there. You can really position yourself well if you get outside of your bubble.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, that's just that's such a great, great piece of wisdom to for people to be hearing. And I love what you're doing, MarKeisha. I really do. I mean, I the very first uh one of your webinars I listened in on. I mean, I sat there soaking it up like a sponge, listening to all the different perspectives because people were on that particular one that were coming at things from so many different points in their career. And almost every one of them, wherever they were, they were hearing some things that they had never heard before that were really, really critical. And there really weren't like long-term stretch things you've got to be working on and investing in for six months. These are things you can be doing right now to build your value, really sharpen your identity, to know who you are, and to start to show up differently on your own behalf, but also in a way that the opportunities are going to open up for you, not only currently where you are, but where you want to be. I just love that. And if you're listening out there and you haven't really been familiar with what MarKeisha's doing, I highly encourage you to take a look at her site. You'll find all the information in the show notes how to get in touch with her. It will be time well spent, I promise you. Just take a look at what's available. She's got unbelievable training content you can get your hands on. Uh, all kinds of opportunities to engage with her and her team. And I can't say enough about it. No matter what level you are in an organization, if you're the CEO, a board member, or or you know, you're just getting started in your career, these are really, really important perspectives that she brings and proven training and delivery of results repeatedly and testimonials that you probably could never count or even take in all of them. But if you're running an organization, she can help you to understand what you need to understand in terms of what's happening in the dynamics and the culture of the cut of your company and how you can make a difference in making sure that you're not only surviving this transformation that we're about to really get into the middle of, but you can you can thrive and you can bring your team with you and you can hopefully make a lot of leaders in the process as well as make some money, hopefully.

MarKeisha Snaith: Yeah, that's what's so important. Think about if you're running, if you're running shop with some of the strongest leaders, how far you can go. I really don't think that everybody's thinking that way.

Chris Hutchins: No, I I know it I measured the wrong things for a long time. I wrote a little bit about this recently, but you know, I I came to a point when I realized after I'd been an organization for like 15 years, within a couple of years of the time that I departed from there, almost everything that I ever did got replaced. The only thing that was left was the people. And in the late dawn, I mean, in Massachusetts, there's a town called Marblehead, and there's a Staying up to date, well, like Don Don Marble Head. But you know, for me, that's there was a moment I realized, oh, of course, the the what's gonna actually last is the people that you invest in and that you equip to carry things into the future. And if you really do care about the company and that's important, it's not the systems, it's not the upgrades you do, the inventions or technology. It's the people and what you can instill in them to carry the mission forward and hopefully do it far better than we do. I mean, I don't even know how many people have far surpassed anything I've ever done, mostly because maybe I held the door one time, not because they learned anything profound from me. And but but that's that's truly the the re you know, to me, the best reward that you have you can get if you're in a place where you can influence in helping people in their career, whether you're hiring them or coaching them or just being a friend or a mentor, whatever that is. Uh there's nothing like that when you when you actually get to see people grow and thrive, discover their own purpose and start actually making more leaders in the process. It's just that is very rewarding. Yes, it it's it's really the best, I think. I can't thank you enough for for coming on. And I feel like we we could do a series and we'd never exhaust the topics.

MarKeisha Snaith: I was gonna say that I'm thinking the same thing too. We could talk about so much. There is a lot to discuss here.

Chris Hutchins: There is, and you know, maybe maybe it's something we we can explore. And uh, you know, I know you're you're meeting people constantly. I've been meeting some even recently, uh, even earlier today. Uh I'm just inspired by. I'm like, I gotta introduce more people that can do some more collaboration. There's just so many really great people uh that really care uh about do you know making life better for human beings at a time where people are so introverted and kind of being drawn closer into their screen life, their social media, it's really exciting to run into people who are excited and are really looking for the ways that we can externally engage and get more people involved and get them excited about what they can actually do and what they can be. And the it doesn't really take a lot to stand out if you start to get really good at human interaction.

MarKeisha Snaith: Honestly, that is so true. It is so true, and when you actually put yourself out there, because a lot of people are not putting themselves out there, so that's already like you're already in the 1%.

Chris Hutchins: I never would have thought that that would be the case. I mean, I don't know what you but 10 years ago, but I wouldn't have believed it. I really wouldn't. But strangely enough, there's a lot of obvious things you have to state now, and they're not obvious to everyone.

MarKeisha Snaith: You learn over time. No, I really appreciate this. I appreciate you for having me on. I'm so happy that we had an opportunity um to meet at, you know, the Put Data First conference. You know, that was a really, really great conference, by the way. Like I love the round tables and just hearing what people had to say about AI and just seeing how people in different industries are thinking about things. It really got my wheels spinning in my head, like coming up with different ideas and what governance looks like from that perspective. And so, you know, anybody listening, I really, really encourage you all to put yourself out there to get outside of your comfort zone and just start showing up for yourself, even when it makes you feel like you are going to embarrass yourself, or you're not gonna be able to speak to anybody, or you're not gonna get anything from it. Trust and believe it will gradually change the way you interact, the way you speak, the way you show up. It will have that change on you. So, you know, you hear tons of people saying, Well, I'm an introvert and all of that stuff. You have to get out of that. Like, how are you going to get to the top if you are just remaining in your little shell? You have to break out of your shell.

Chris Hutchins: Yeah, I I think an interesting point that that and it was really funny how I even learned this. But when I was working in Boston at Mass General Hospital at one point in years ago, they brought in the Screen Actors Guild to teach uh some of us uh presentation skills. So I'm like Screen Actors Guild? But it it became evident to me as we got into it the what it what this was all about. And it was really about how you communicate and convey information. And what really on top of that, what I really came away with is that none of us are an individual human being, we are not the jobs that we do. You might not be an actor in Hollywood, but you are absolutely an actor. We don't think of ourselves that way. There are things that I would never ever do in a million years if I didn't need to do it for my job, because it's just left it interesting to me. Right? I mean, people would think that I'm a data nerd, and which that's true. Um, they might just think because uh I do some conferences or whatever, that I'm an extrovert. Well, in reality, in my personal life, I'm very content to just hang out at home, be you know, have peace and quiet, just relax. I don't know. I don't need to be out having a good time and going to dinner and I mean I'll I don't mind doing it, but that's not my preference. This is not the way I'm wired. But we all have a bit of an actor role that we play it when it comes to the jobs that we do. It's not who we are. And so if you kind of think about it in that way, just start to think about some of the things that you need you could be doing differently. It's really it doesn't define who you are, it's just another thing that you do, and you use it as a tool in your toolbox. It's really not anything more than that. And we're all self-conscious for a variety of reasons. Some of you don't ever just ever know that, but I promise you we all are self-conscious on some level.

MarKeisha Snaith: Yes, to some degree, absolutely.

Chris Hutchins: Um, I do want to say before we wrap, because you mentioned the put data first conference, please keep your eyes peeled on on LinkedIn because that event is going to be happening again, but it's going to be happening sooner. I believe it's June. I don't want to put a date out there because I need I don't have it in front of me. But just be watching for put data first um out on LinkedIn. And and if you're not on the mailing list, I'm pretty sure you can go to putdatafirst.com and you can start getting information on it. It is a phenomenal event. You're you're gonna have opportunity to meet people from every industry you can probably imagine in more, and you're gonna find out what is what is the latest and greatest going on in in AI and technology from people from every perspective. I was talking with you know people that were info security experts, CTOs, CISOs, um, clinical people for from a healthcare space, everyone. Every kind of technology. Yeah, I mean, it was fascinating. I'd never seen so many excited people, just people that were typically the ones that I knew were going to put the brakes on me when I was trying to talk about a new technology. Um, the information security people or the, you know, the the the CIOs that were concerned about firewalls or whatever. I mean, but these people all show up really excited because they're they're looking to find out how they can say yes and move things forward. And the collaboration is is unbelievable. I've met so many people since that day. I got I went there the first time, and you know, that's how we met. And I've had countless other conversations where you know there's really cool things that you know we get to stay connected with. And you you might actually find the opportunity to be involved and influence something uh that hasn't even happened yet. And you don't think you have anything to say on the topic, but you're probably wrong. You probably have something to say.

MarKeisha Snaith: Exactly. That's how I felt. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to have you know much value to add. And I was like, I just want to listen. But, you know, there was just so much that you so much information you were getting from so many different people, so many different perspectives, and you have to appreciate that. It was a really great conference.

Chris Hutchins: And I hope we see you all there. Uh MarKeisha, again, thank you so much for taking the time. I've loved our conversation. I can't wait for people to get to to hear what you what you had to say. And I I can't encourage people enough to to go check out what you're what you're doing, check out your site, check out all the training materials, make so you know, make yourself an appointment, have a consult. You can make your life better. This is one thing I can tell you for sure. You can make your life better, and this is one way for that I know you can do it. So please take advantage of that. And thank you again, MarKeisha.

MarKeisha Snaith: Thank you, Chris, for having me. Um, and yes, I'm looking forward. If you're watching this, I am looking forward to meeting with you, chatting with you. Um, definitely please reach out for any additional information or to work with me.

Chris Hutchins: Thank you so much.

MarKeisha Snaith: Thank you.

Chris Hutchins: That's it for this episode of the Signal Room. If today's conversation sparks something in you, an idea, a challenge, or a perspective worth amplifying, I'd love to hear from you. Message me on LinkedIn or visit signalroompodcast.com to explore being a guest on an upcoming episode. Until next time, stay tuned, stay curious, and stay human.